Chronicles of the Qin Dynasty

Chapter 244, Section 243: A Conversation with Wen Xun [Multiple Dialogues and Debates]

Faced with Wen Xun's eloquent speech, Qin Shi smiled, picked up his teacup, and remained calm:
“What you say is very true, sir.”

Wen Xun shut his mouth.

"The Queen doesn't agree, does she?"

He was much older than Qin Shi and had long experienced poverty in the mountains and rivers, so he was naturally an expert in judging people's emotions.

He could tell whether the other person was interested in grand, dramatic events or mundane daily routines.

Qin Shi hesitated for a moment:
"While your suggestion is good, I don't think it's the best option. Therefore, we should set this issue aside for now and reconsider it next year when we have more results."

Wen Xun frowned: "May I ask Your Majesty, is it because Your Majesty's frugality and the resulting influence are not beneficial to the people and are you not a worthy example of a sage?"

"Or is it that the late Master's emphasis on Confucianism and education is not what the Qin state needs now?"

He's known for being argumentative and difficult.

I wonder if Ji Heng would still dare to ask such a question in return?
Qin Shi sighed, slowly setting down his teacup. He then looked at the historian to his side, who was now holding a brush, dipping it in ink, his eyes gleaming, clearly eager to record what followed.

Having mentally prepared her speech, her expression grew even calmer:
"Let me answer your first question, sir."

"The frugality of noble people sets an example for their subordinates, which is indeed a virtue."

"But what the Qin state, and even its people, lack most now is not virtue."

Wen Xun frowned deeply, his not-so-young face tense and serious.

If the queen's answer is not convincing, he will probably have to resign from the recruitment and retire to the mountains again.

However, Qin Shi simply relaxed his brow and began to speak in a gentle and detailed manner:

"If the king and I do not build palaces, cultivate crystal, or produce coal for heating, then even the nobles will dare not wear silk and satin, nor adorn themselves with pearls and jade..."

"And what about the common people?"

“Mountain dwellers have to cut down trees to pay taxes, but no palace needs timber anymore, and no one is buying timber anymore, or powerful families are driving down prices… How will they pay their taxes?”

"The nobles no longer want glass, nor do they wear silk and satin, nor do they adorn themselves with pearls and jade. The glass workshops will be shut down, and no one will buy their silkworms anymore. Weavers and farmers will stop weaving at night, and a bolt of cloth cannot be exchanged for a bushel of grain."

"The barren land for jade mining, the impoverished seafarers who dive for pearls—they will all have no livelihood. The salty beaches there are unsuitable for farming or building workshops."

"Mr. Wen, are you doing this to create a saint, or to help the common people? Are you truly advocating for them?"

In a corner, the historian was writing furiously.

To the side, Chi Nu and Wu Zi listened blankly, their ink dripping down their faces.

Yan Cong, who had been silent the whole time, remained completely still.

Only Wen Xun was initially bewildered, then pondered, and then suddenly realized the truth, thus resuming his efforts—

"The Queen's words are far too exaggerated!"

"Little do people know that countless loggers die every year. Pearl divers also suffer many deaths, their remains never to be found!"

"If what the Queen says is true, does that mean all the nobles in the world must become extravagant in order to enrich the country?!"

Qin Shi sighed: "Sir, you didn't understand—it all comes down to the word 'moderation'."

“If a noble person is too frugal and keeps his wealth in the treasury, it will cause the door hinge to stop turning and the water to become stagnant.”

"But extravagance and the tendency to compare oneself with others will drive up prices, causing a surge of conflicting interests that will sweep away everything in its path."

"Now that the Queen in the palace uses glass windows, the nobles will surely follow suit. With income, the workshops will hire more commoners to mine and transport goods."

"Merchants carry it in trade, and it also requires a lot of manpower to move and carry it carefully."

"If ordinary people save up a few coins, they can exchange them for a bushel of millet, or they can burn coal in the winter. In this way, if there is work, someone can survive."

"The national treasury is depleted, but national defense cannot be relaxed for a single day."

"In the land of Baiyue, there are wolf soldiers eyeing us covetously. In the Western Regions, the Hu, Qiang, Rong and Di tribes plunder every year. Natural disasters in various places need to be compensated, and officials and commoners need to be paid their salaries."

"Weapon manufacturing, medicine procurement, everything is inseparable from the word 'money'."

"As money circulates from the hands of nobles to the hands of commoners, they use it to purchase goods, and various income taxes also flow into the national treasury."

"Goods flow smoothly, and the benefits come from circulation. Both agriculture and commerce benefit, and markets are never lacking."

“And me,” she gave a bitter smile, “do you think I am frugal or extravagant, sir?”

Wen Xun fell silent.

In fact, even if the windows were made of luxurious glass, the Queen of Qin still appeared quite simple.

He traveled to many countries in his youth and saw noblemen and their favorite concubines scattering countless pearls into the lake, just to catch a glimpse of the raindrops resembling pearls.

The court historian wrote with lightning speed, his brow beaded with sweat as he wrote.

Wen Xun remained silent for a long time before finally bowing in admiration: "What the Queen said makes sense. I was ignorant of economics and spoke recklessly. It was really wrong of me."

Qin Shi originally thought he might not be very useful—he sounded like a bookish person who dreamed of becoming a sage but was ignorant of worldly matters.

But the fact that the other party admitted their mistake so quickly makes me realize that they weren't entirely without merit. At the very least, they hold themselves to the standards of a saint, so it's quite possible that they themselves possess such self-discipline.

Thinking of this, she became more patient.

After all, if such a talented person could be recruited and his reputation spread, there would definitely be more people participating in the examination at Ganquan Palace next year.

Seeing the look of shame on Wen Xun's face, she rallied herself and continued:

"As for whether 'respecting Confucianism and emphasizing education' is what the Qin state needs right now..."

"Sir, I do not understand governance, but in my humble opinion—that is not the case."

Wen Xun looked up in astonishment!

He still looked ashamed, but this answer truly shattered his spirit and left him utterly devastated!

That's enough! That's enough—

He was almost ready to surrender gracefully and leave in defeat, but he was still unwilling to give up.

My late teacher Xunzi was a supreme scholar, and his words are now widely followed in the sea of ​​learning!
Why, why—

He gritted his teeth, his forehead covered in sweat, yet he stubbornly demanded, "Why?!"

"Our teacher's philosophy emphasizes rules, education, respect for etiquette, and adherence to the law."

"It draws on the strengths of Confucianism and incorporates Legalist ideas."

"Does the Queen truly believe that Qin's current oppressive policies are appropriate?"

Qin Shi shook his head:

"Sir, you are a man of great learning, and you must have read the Guanzi. May I ask—'When the granaries are full, people know etiquette'—what is the meaning of this?"

"Are the people of Qin now enjoying abundant granaries and no longer worrying about food and clothing?"

That's far from the truth.

In fact, most people are still struggling to survive, barely clinging to life.

Wen Xun frowned: "Even if the wealth flows smoothly, with the heavy taxes of my Qin state now, the people are suffering unbearably, so how can they have enough to eat and wear?"

This is undeniable in Qin Shi's time. Today, the Qin state imposes heavy taxes and corvée labor, and its oppressive policies are more ferocious than a tiger!

But that's not what she wanted to say.

“I have heard of your ideas before—although they draw on Han Fei’s legal principles, they are essentially based on Confucian etiquette and moral education.”

To say that he was "Confucian in appearance but Legalist in essence" is far from the truth.

"But the common people are hungry. If there is only one wheat cake in front of them, they have to fight with everyone else to get a bite. If we were to follow your philosophy, someone should use punishment to restrain them, and then use Confucian classics to educate them..."

Wen Xun frowned even more deeply: "Isn't this wrong?"

Qin Shi sighed, "But what if the people of a village, a county, a prefecture, or even a country were all fighting over these wheat cakes? How could we restrain them? And how many people would be there to educate them?"

We're so poor, so incredibly poor.

When people cannot even maintain their most basic needs for food and clothing, Confucianism's attempt to change the masses through education goes against human nature and instinct, and will ultimately lead to failure.

Today, oppressive government is more ferocious than a tiger. In this precarious country, harsh laws are used to restrain people from taking dangerous actions on the edge of a precipice.

Adding fuel to the fire won't solve the problem forever, but it will at least keep things going.

Until—the day the building collapses.

Therefore, despite knowing that Qin's legal system was too tight, Qin Shi did not rashly advise Ji Heng in order to maintain stability and prevent unrest before a more lenient approach was available.

Wen Xun was speechless again.

Despite his extensive reading, he believed his teacher's teachings were unparalleled.

The nobles in the country have not been employed because they are short-sighted and only care about the tyranny of the king, disregarding the people's strength and showing no love for the common people.

And now, it is I who am ashamed to face people!
He sighed sadly, his weathered face suddenly looking much older, and even his eyes were filled with painful tears.

All my lifelong learning and beliefs, at this moment, have ultimately rendered me unable to speak up for the people.

He bowed deeply, as if he would never be able to straighten his old, frail back again. Gathering all his strength, he asked one last question:
"Thank you, Your Majesty, for clearing up my doubts."

"Hearing your words is worth more than reading books for ten years. I just wonder, in the Queen's opinion, which school of thought is more suitable for the Qin Dynasty?"

Qin Shi smiled.

There were some things she couldn't say directly to Ji Heng, but she could let him know through a third party.

At this moment, she finally spoke the thought that had been weighing on her mind all along:

"The Huang-Lao School of Thought".

Wen Xun was taken aback.

He had considered many great thinkers, even Mozi, but he never imagined it would be the Huang-Lao school!

Qin Shi added: "Virtue and punishment should be combined, rites and laws should be used together, and governance should be achieved through non-interference."

"In my mind, this is the doctrine that is suitable for the future Qin Dynasty."

After hearing Xun mutter the recitation several times, he suddenly smiled bitterly:

"I understand!"

Moral education and punishment, when combined and integrated, constitute the principle of rewarding good and punishing evil.

Education should be supplemented by punishment, and while using punishment, we must also consider whether it can guide and educate. We should abandon harsh and rigid legal provisions and follow the development of human nature.

In this way, ethical classes and customs are used to maintain public order, good morals, and ethical concepts.

Legal systems and rules are used to define rights and obligations and ensure that evil deeds are punished.

Finally, the principle of "governing by non-interference" serves as the general guideline of national policy. It follows the laws of development of things, including the laws governing people's livelihoods and the market, refraining from forceful intervention and arbitrary actions...

This completely broke away from the harsh laws of "using punishment to control punishment" previously established by Lord Shang.

Wen Xun gave a bitter laugh: "The Queen really is..."

He couldn't continue, and could only sigh sadly, "This humble subject is ashamed and unworthy to see you. Please leave the palace now—"

　This chapter is all my own summary. I wrote 3000 words in three hours. It was so difficult!!! I shed tears of ignorance.

　　Please point out any errors in the references used... It might be a bit dry, but I've tried my best!
　　With more practice, I'll write even better!

　　Thank you for your support!

　　(End of this chapter)