Jinting Han people

Chapter 89 Liu Xian discusses feudalism again (4k)

In the tenth year of Taikang (289 AD), Liu Xian was eighteen years old and Lu Ji was twenty-nine years old. The age difference between the two was eleven years, but the difference did not seem big.

Lu Ji was handsome, with a face as white as jade, a resolute demeanor, and a passionate expression. Those who met him often compared him to a surging ocean wave. Liu Xian, on the other hand, possessed a mature demeanor, a solemn complexion, and a manner and conversation that was anything but childish. Instead, he possessed a composure beyond his years, often leading others to mistake him for a white cloud in the sky, untouched by the dust of the world. These two contrasting qualities offset the age difference, often giving the impression of being of the same generation.

Lu Ji did not expect that someone would refute him. He was quite surprised. He looked Liu Xian up and down, confirming that this was the first time he met this person. He could not help but cast a questioning look at Le Guang who was standing beside him.

Le Guang smiled slightly. He hadn't expected Liu Xian to speak up at this moment, but as the host of the Qing Tan, he was still very happy to see more juniors joining in the debate. He knocked on the wooden ruyi again, signaling the chattering crowd to quiet down. Then he introduced them, "This is Liu Xian, the son of the Duke of Anle, and a Second-Rank official. We might as well hear his opinions."

Among the people at the literary gathering, some were familiar with Liu Xian, but many were meeting him for the first time. When they heard that Liu Xian was the prince of Anle, they turned their eyes back to Lu Ji. Although they kept quiet as Le Guang had requested, their eyes were full of mischief.

Anyone who knows a little about history will instantly think of the feud between their ancestors, Liu Bei and Lu Xun.

The fire in Yiling that Lu Xun set at that time, at the cost of tens of thousands of Shu Han's troops, established his historical status as the most famous general of Eastern Wu, and also blocked the revival of Shu Han.

Over the past month since arriving in Beijing, Lu Ji has been making frequent comments in the literary world, seemingly determined to unify it, clearly aiming to revive his family's reputation. At today's literary gathering, he outperformed Pei Wei with his arguments for the feudal prefecture-county system, and his reputation has reached its peak.

But at this moment, the Prince of Anle jumped out. It was hard not to think that he was influenced by the resentment of his ancestors and wanted to suppress Lu Ji's arrogance here.

But at this moment, Liu Xian didn’t think so.

Initially, Liu Xian had joined this literary gathering out of genuine desire to witness Lu Ji's talent. If Lu Ji's reputation didn't live up to its reputation, he wouldn't mind kicking him when he was down. But after hearing Lu Ji's theory of county-level feudalism in person, he felt nothing but genuine admiration and joy. Some things he had previously struggled to understand suddenly became clear to him, inspired by Lu Ji's unique perspective.

Liu Xian now has some new ideas and can't help but want to communicate with Lu Ji in public.

Lu Ji was indeed a man of distinguished manners. Seeing Liu Xian come out, he showed no sign of anger. After bowing, he asked calmly, "I wonder if Mr. Liu has any advice for you?"

Liu Xian said, "I dare not say I am giving you advice, but after listening to Brother Lu's profound speech, I have also gained a lot. However, after thinking about it carefully, I feel that there are still some shortcomings in what Brother Lu said, so I would like to discuss a few things..."

"Oh? I'd like to hear the details."

"Brother Lu just talked about the system, arguing that morality is a derivative of the system. The main reason why there is no good morality in the world is that there is no good system. The best system is to fully implement the feudal system like the Zhou Dynasty. Is that true?"

This was indeed the basis of Lu Ji's argument, and he nodded in agreement, saying, "That's right."

"Brother Lu's wisdom is truly astonishing." Liu Xian lowered his voice slightly, then raised it, "But in my opinion, wanting to realize the enfeoffment at this moment is like a castle in the air. It may seem wonderful, but it is impossible to realize."

Liu Xian's point of view was so sharp, like a thunderclap, that it startled everyone. Lu Ji couldn't help but lean forward and asked, "How should I begin to explain this?"

Liu Xian smiled and said, "Brother Lu, although your remarks just now are original and unique, if you interpret them as political propositions, they are actually the most orthodox of Confucius's teachings on self-discipline and restoration of propriety, aren't they?"

Confucius lived in the chaotic Spring and Autumn Period, just before the feudal system collapsed and the county system took shape. The hereditary nobles of Jin held great power, Lu was in civil strife, Qi was in the midst of a crisis, and the Tian family was replacing Qi. Chu was on the verge of extinction, and Yue was the hegemon among the other states.

"Seeing the chaos in the world, he was deeply distressed and so studied the rituals of the Shang and Zhou dynasties, traveling around the kingdoms, hoping to spread his teachings. I was ignorant, and until now I thought Confucius was using words to promote rituals and teach the people to practice the way of the gentleman. But after listening to Brother Lu's words, I finally realized that the main principle of Confucius' governance was to rebuild the feudal system."

"But as we all know, Confucius promoted his teachings among various nations. Although he repeatedly received favor from emperors, he was never able to spread his teachings. Why was that?"

Having said that, Liu Xian paused slightly and threw the question to Lu Ji.

Lu Ji had initially looked down on Liu Xian due to his youth, but faced with such a challenging question, he dared not slack off. After a moment's hesitation, he replied, "The reason why you, Master, cannot accomplish anything is because the country has accumulated too many problems, and they are so deep and difficult to correct. It is no longer possible to change the system. It is like an old man trying to accomplish the things of his youth. Naturally, he is powerless and helpless."

"Mr. Liu is bringing this up now, simply to say that institutions cannot cure all ills, and I agree with that."

"As I've said before, the Zhou Dynasty, which heavily relied on the feudal system, eventually withered and perished. People often ask for too much, but in reality, we have to make choices. From a power perspective, the emperor's power during the enfeoffment period was less than that of the prefectures and counties, but in terms of the longevity of the dynasty, the enfeoffment system far outlasted the prefecture and county system."

"It has only been ten years since the Great Jin unified the world. This is the prime of a nation. The reason I am calling for the division of fiefdoms now is because if we don't change the system sooner rather than later, once the nation ages and the system becomes rigid, I'm afraid there will be no more opportunities."

In response to Liu Xian's questioning, Lu Ji gave a fairly perfect answer. He combined the answer with his previous discussion, explaining that the system is not a panacea and cannot cure all diseases. Instead, he further improved his argument and increased its credibility.

When the celebrities heard this, they couldn't help but whisper to each other and discuss secretly. Most of their words praised Lu Ji and approved of the feudal policy, thinking that this was indeed a good prescription for the country's illness.

Even a man like Zu Ti who loved chaos and rejoiced in misfortune, after listening to Lu Ji's discussion, lowered his head and pondered, thinking about the feasibility of it.

But this did not hinder Liu Xian's subsequent debate. He shook his head and said, "Brother Lu, what you said is a bit like looking for a sword on a boat, and the analogy is inappropriate."

"Carving a boat to look for a sword? How can this be justified?" Lu Ji did not expect that Liu Xian could actually raise a question, and he suddenly became passionate. When he was in his hometown, Lu Ji would often defeat the opposing side in a few words when discussing politics with others. He was invincible and had no rivals. Even after entering the capital, he was at ease when facing the literati and celebrities in Luoyang. He did not expect to meet a figure like Liu Xian today, which made him feel like he had met his match, and he was quite expectant and happy. Liu Xian was obviously in the same state. He knocked on the table and said, "Times are different now than in the past. When Duke Zhou divided the country, the land did not extend beyond Hanmian in the south, Youyan in the north, Qingxu in the east, or Sanqin in the west. Barbarians were everywhere, and the Xianyun invaded repeatedly. Therefore, the princes were used to control the eight wildernesses, and the people were used to control the barbarians."

"Mencius said, 'Born in sorrow and die in comfort,'" he pointed out. The long-term survival of the feudal system depended on the harsh political environment of the Zhou Dynasty. A single misstep by King You of Zhou would have resulted in his own death and the destruction of his kingdom, a clear example of this. But it was also thanks to this harsh environment that, despite King You's death, the princes rose up to defend the royal family. This led to Guan Zhong honoring the king and repelling the barbarians after King Ping's eastward migration, and the various hegemons emerged, ultimately resulting in the three hundred years of peace that characterized the Spring and Autumn Period."

"But when the power of the Xia people surpasses that of the barbarians, as Mencius said, and the states lose their enemies and external threats, and reach a relatively stable state, people's desire for power will become unstoppable, and the Xia people will regard the Xia people as enemies and external threats, leading to endless internal strife, and the feudal system will inevitably collapse."

"After the Spring and Autumn Period, the Warring States Period came and annexed the country. That's the reason."

"It's the same principle. When Emperor Gaozu founded the country, the people of Guandong were not yet stable and border troubles were not resolved, so he divided Guandong among the princes of the royal family. By the time of Emperor Wen and Emperor Jing, Guandong had stabilized, and the princes began to plot chaos and covet the sacred artifact. This was only fifty years after Emperor Gaozu founded the country."

"These examples all demonstrate that the stability of the feudal system depends on external threats. If there are no external threats, feudalization will only lead to meaningless wars within the country. The more feudalization is done, the larger the scale of the war will be."

"Now the country has been unified. The northeast is covered with snowy plains and white forests, the northwest is a desert Gobi, the southwest is a towering mountain range, and the southeast is a vast ocean. Looking around, there is no enemy foreign threat worth mentioning."

"According to Mencius, this is precisely the time to revitalize the Legalists and scholars to clarify politics and curb civil unrest. Yet, Brother Lu, at this moment, advocates for widespread enfeoffment. Doesn't this defeat the original purpose of the feudal system?"

"To force a feudal system without a suitable feudal environment is like building castles in the air or trying to find a sword by carving a mark on a boat. This is probably what it means."

After saying that, Liu Xian breathed a sigh of relief, and at the same time felt a little dry in the mouth. He raised a glass of water and took a sip, then raised his head and looked around.

The faces of most of the audience became serious. As deep as their admiration for Lu Ji just now, their surprise at Liu Xian was now as deep.

Everyone originally thought that, considering his age, the Prince of Anle was less than twenty years old. Although he was a second-rank official, he was still too young. Perhaps he would have some remarkable achievements in writing, but he would still be lacking in political commentary.

However, in the subsequent political debate, Liu Xian used classics to discuss history and used history to explain classics. It sounded absurd at first, but upon closer inspection, it was impeccable. Although his ideas were borrowed from Lu Ji, his sharp on-the-spot reaction was probably unmatched by anyone present.

Pei Wei whispered to Wang Yan, "I originally thought Lu Ji was the only one who stood out, but now it seems that Liu Xian is no less capable."

Countless others were discussing the matter, but the host, Le Guang, remained calm. He knocked on the wooden ruyi again to silence the crowd, then turned to Lu Ji and asked, "Shi Heng, do you have anything else to debate?"

Lu Ji did have something else to say, but he didn't choose to expand on Liu Xian's rhetoric. Instead, he returned to his original topic and said:
"But as I said before, the county system itself encourages corruption and bribery. If we don't switch to a feudal system, there's no way to eliminate corruption. How can we then revive the orthodox values of loyalty and filial piety?"

Liu Xian had already thought this through clearly, and he replied:
"If the county system encouraged corruption, then the feudal system encouraged corruption even more severely."

"The feudal system, to put it another way, is the hereditary aristocracy system. If, in the first generation, fiefdoms were bestowed based on merit, the people were treated like their own subjects, then what about the second generation? The descendants of meritorious officials receive unearned gains, possessing a vast territory without any credit. How can they cherish what they have gained? As the saying goes, 'People are born in hardship and die in comfort.' Without supervision and checks and balances, is it rare for them to exploit their own people and invade foreign lands?"

"Under the county system, a wise ruler could still evaluate performance and reward and punish officials, promoting virtuous officials and dismissing corrupt ones to improve official conduct. Even if a ruler made a mistake in employing people, he could later repent and correct the mistakes, rectifying the faults of the previous ruler. This was the case with Emperor Xuan of Han and Emperor Wu of Han, and Emperor Ming of Han and Emperor Guangwu of Han. As long as a correct performance evaluation and reward and punishment system is established within the county system, favoring virtuous officials and distancing corrupt officials, so-called corruption will be nothing more than a minor infestation."

"If the feudal system is used, corruption among officials will become rampant, and the state will be powerless to stop it, allowing these corrupt officials to wreak havoc for decades. Which encourages corruption, the former or the latter? I think the answer is self-evident."

"After all, people not only seek profit, but also avoid harm. The five-level division of fiefdoms made it clear to officials that the benefits of corruption were obvious, but the harm was hard to see. This led to rampant corruption, and even to sudden death. This was a common occurrence."

"Even if we discard this perspective and simply look at the selection of talented individuals, those with high family backgrounds may not necessarily have virtuous descendants, and those with low family backgrounds may not necessarily have foolish descendants. Letting foolish people occupy high positions while letting wise people occupy low ones is nothing but a disaster."

"As for the principles of loyalty and filial piety," Liu Xian pondered for a long time. "I think that calling for the pure principles of loyalty and filial piety today is like asking rivers to flow backwards. Can rivers flow backwards? It is absolutely impossible for rivers to flow backwards!"

"Instead of thinking about how to restore the Zhou Dynasty system in the present, we should consider new systems based on current realities and adapt to new morals. This is the true way to govern the country."

"Oh?" Lu Ji listened to Liu Xian's talk until this point. Although he still disagreed with many points, he was also curious about his answer and couldn't help but ask, "From your perspective, what virtue should the world value?"

"In my opinion, the rise and fall of loyalty and filial piety are rooted in emotion, promoted by propriety, and destroyed by lack of trust. People in today's world lack trust, and then they lose righteousness."

"Shang Yang moved trees to establish trust, and Emperor Gaozu established three laws, which led to the prosperity of the Qin and Han dynasties." Liu Xian clasped his hands on the table and said slowly: "Zhou You entertained the princes, but the world fell apart. Shang Zhou changed his orders every day, and all nations fled westward."

“This is the difference between having faith and not having faith.”

"Mencius once said, 'If the ruler treats his subjects like his own hands and feet, then the subjects will treat the ruler as their own heart and soul; if the ruler treats his subjects like dogs and horses, then the subjects will treat the ruler as their fellow countrymen; if the ruler treats his subjects like dirt, then the subjects will treat the ruler as their enemy.' While this may seem unethical, at its core, it is also about upholding trust and loyalty."

"Loyalty is like this, and so is filial piety. By building trust and loyalty throughout the world, we can achieve a peaceful and prosperous era!"

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(End of this chapter)